Other Favorite Cartoons

[Mr. Marshmallow]

It's a generalization, not a literal term. It's just something a person can not only hear from others but also see with expierence, the more shows you see the more you compare as you live through the years and think about things as they go by. Things were different back with older cartoons.

I'm not talking Japanese or other culture, I'm talking about the toons we saw and felt back then and how we see and feel them now. It's amazing to think how much older cartoons were capable of getting away with and saying and doing. How sometimes the smallest things can be the most important when you realize there taken away.

Eisner may have been here since Afternoon, but one thing that is a fact is his outcome with Disney was not a good one, nor with the general public mostly. I don't hate the new toons because I like the old ones, I hate simply the basis on why it's removed. Like with Teen Titans and and Justice League, perfect example.

Teen Titans was not a poorly rated show and it (along with JL) was cancelled when Cartoon Network stated they wanted more "cartoon" cartoons. If a show is doing good and it is not sagging in the ratings, no matter how business ethnic related or reasonable it sounds, canning them for different "directions" isn't fair to the fans.

Putting a show on TV and having people create a fan base, favorite characters, and grow so attached to them, it's a terrible feeling to hear that there being pushed out simply because of a difference in directional approaches. To them, it's a show, it's a product that they sell and distribute.

But people live off these cartoons and it matters alot to them, some more then even I can describe. Alot of the things and expierences in my life have been through TV shows and cartoons, and knowing the impact they have on you can make you feel crummy knowing that may have been dumped over such an issue as direction.

I never liked Pepper Ann or Recess, but that has nothing to do with how they came about, I dislike them because I watched them and I didn't get hooked, fair and simple. I just get mad at how sometimes shows are dumped and I have to wonder, do they really realize the effect this will have on some people?

[billytheskink]

Originally Posted by Mr. Marshmallow

It's a generalization, not a literal term. It's just something a person can not only hear from others but also see with expierence, the more shows you see the more you compare as you live through the years and think about things as they go by. Things were different back with older cartoons.

It's not a fair generalization though. Opinions vary among people, such a broad generalization doesn't account for that.

Originally Posted by Mr. Marshmallow

I don't hate the new toons because I like the old ones, I hate simply the basis on why it's removed.

Fair enough, but that wasn't what you first said in regards to Pepper Ann.

Originally Posted by Mr. Marshmallow

I never liked Pepper Ann or Recess, but that has nothing to do with how they came about, I dislike them because I watched them and I didn't get hooked, fair and simple. I just get mad at how sometimes shows are dumped and I have to wonder, do they really realize the effect this will have on some people?

Fair enough (again). It's unfortunate that shows leave production when they still have so much potential (Perfect Hair Forever...). I too get frustrated with the actions of the networks and I let them know it. Their actions are often justified, not to me perhaps but at least to their shareholders.
Nevertheless, I have better things to do than stay dissapointed, there is plenty of animation out there to enjoy. It's better that our favorites existed in the first place than if they hadn't existed at all.

[Mr. Marshmallow]

Originally Posted by billytheskink

It's not a fair generalization though. Opinions vary among people, such a broad generalization doesn't account for that.

That wasn't meant to come off as sounding unfair, so please don't take it that way. When I like a cartoon or even when I'm just plain bored, I look up into the extra details about shows and find out about dumped plot ideas or scrapped seasons or extra stuff no one really knows about.

That's how I found out about the 4th season for Darkwing Duck and even a possible crossover between him and Rescue Rangers. It's in those areas of information I find fans of the show sharing similar feelings of anger that they see what shows are replacing them. I simply refer to people I have talked with.

Originally Posted by billytheskink

Fair enough, but that wasn't what you first said in regards to Pepper Ann.

What I said about Pepper Ann was a mistake if it came off me hating the show in and of itself just for being a "replacement". I never liked the animation style from the get go, but I don't knock something unless I have at least tried it to some extent.

Originally Posted by billytheskink

Their actions are often justified, not to me perhaps but at least to their shareholders. Nevertheless, I have better things to do than stay dissapointed, there is plenty of animation out there to enjoy. It's better that our favorites existed in the first place than if they hadn't existed at all.

I know it's a business first and foremost but it's the kind of business that others can get attached to, and that's where the fans come first in my opinion, simply because you are making something that carries signifigance to them. A good cartoon show is far more valuable then any paystub if you ask me.

Money comes and goes, quality TV that sticks with you the rest of your life is hard to come by. And I never said stay disappointed, but disappointment doesn't hurt to be expressed even if it was a long while ago. Recent events or situations can always stir up memories you never thought you'd bring up again.

I am glad that they existed. But being a writer and someone who constantly can't help but imagine about the possibilities of any person, TV show, band, movie, comic book etc. One can't help but wonder if the thing or person you lost might have been capable of so much more then you expierenced.

I'm not saying let it consume you, and I'm not saying dread and mope about it the rest of your life, I'm just saying it's worth thinking about what could have been.

[billytheskink]

All good thoughts. Seems we're argueing (if you can call it that, eh?) over my misinterpretation of what you said, or your saying something you didn't mean. Maybe a little of both.

Then the discussion just grows from there. But that's why I like talking with you...

Darkwing and Rescue Rangers crossover? Interesting. You have any more info on that? I'd love to read up on it.

DuckTales and Talespin were my favorites in the TDA lineup, though. I remember watching Talespin with my grandfather, he enjoyed it because he was a pilot.
There's a cartoon you won't see anything like anymore. Guns are pretty much taboo in kid's cartoons (even war-related ones, like Liberty's Kids, draw their scenes around the violence).
The occasional appearance of Lorenzo Music or Hal Smith's voicework in Talespin nearly brings a tear to my eye. I'd trade the life of any cartoon to have those guys back...

Guess I got off track there, but hey, it's fun.

[Mr. Marshmallow]

No see, it's that kind of classic stuff that I miss. I mean consider this: Disney actually allowed use of characters dying, guns, bullets, Satan, AND actually saying the word "dead" on their shows. They get away with more stuff then Teen Titans did in their entire run.

No laser guns, no "destroy me" crap, these shows were quality made with clever, adult linted humor and voice actors that are irreplacable. From Baloo to Scrooge Mcduck to even the Gummi Bears, these shows had quality voice actors that made an ever lasting impression with these roles, or at least i felt so.

I wouldn't consider this an argument actually billy, compared to the other discussions I've had this would be considered preschool stuff. I've been in some HEATED and HELLISH arguments before. In regards to the Rescue Rangers thing, here's what I found out: There was an episode that more or less set this crossover idea up.

In an episode called "Twitching Channels" Darkwing and Megavolt are zapped into "Our world". Meaning humans, RL, where Darkwing's life runs on a TV show and the guy that owns his show in this world is this pompus, blonde haired rich type snob. He reveals this invention called an "idea helmet".

A device that was supposed to inspire people, but when he used it he got zapped and started receiving radio transmission from Darkwing's world. He uses the knowledge of the transmissions to create the episodes in the RL world, Darkwing eventually realizes he and Megavolt can get back through the helmet.

At the end, they are zapped back and the company president thinks he's ruined. But when one of his assitants puts his ear to the fried helmet, they receive transmissions from Rescue Rangers including ACTUAL dialouge from the likes of Chip, Dale, and Monterary Jack.

The guy hears them say Rescue rangers away and then he says "Rescue Rangers, hey, now there's a cartoon show!". Darkwing's season 4 was planning on doing a crossover with Darkwing after they had successfully brought over not only Launchpad from Duck Tales, but also Gizmo Duck and FOWL.

FOWL (Fiendish organization for world larceny) was a Duck Tales villain syndicate that was transferred over to Darkwing. Other season 4 plans included tying up the loose ends with the newly resurrected cyborg Taraus Bulba (from the pilot) and bringing back 2 other villains for future plans.

Those villains included the "original" Negaduck that was Darkwing's negative side made out of living energy, and Paddywhack (voiced by Phil Hartman) a skeletal clown like duck ghoul that lived inside a jack in the box and possesed Quackerjack's inanimate stuffed toy, Mr. Banana Brain.

All these were issues they would have covered in season 4, and they were obvious plans laid out for it in the show, watch the episode "The Steerminator" and you'll see exactly what I mean.

[billytheskink]

Fascinating stuff Mr. M. It's a shame that such a crossover never came to be.
Makes me want to resume my search for the Darkwing Duck video game, it's not easy to find...

Cartoons today seem to be able to get away with a lot more than they used to (like adult swim or some of those Japanese shows), or not nearly as much as they used to (most any kid's show). There's not much middle ground, even with cartoons aimed at folks between childhood and adulthood.
I wonder if that is the reason Toon Disney thrusts older shows into the wee morning...

[Mr. Marshmallow]

Adult Swim's cartoons are designed to shock and awe us, there here to use adult related humor to make us laugh. They were created for that purpose alone. What shocked me about toons like from Disney was that being designed for children, it's amazing at what was so "dark" about some of their content.

Tale Spin had a character actually lined up for a firing squad, Darkwing Duck has someone sell his soul to a an animated version of Satan, hell in Pokemon the main character DIED and was a ghost during an episode and Pokemon is about as tame as anime as you can get.

The trouble is older cartoons were able to get away with more due to their child like nature thanks to the fact we didn't have so many anal restrictions and guidelines. The cartoon "The Tick" was about as adult as you can get, half the jokes in there are more along the lines of Family Guy level weird humor then kiddie friendly.

Alot of toons are adapting anime-esque styles into their shows like Witch, Totally Spies, Teen Titans, and even The Batman. What's nice about Foster's is that it not only is incporating an entirely new way of making a TV series, an original storyline (something I still haven't seen for a long ass time).

But most importantly it has SHARP writing, it has powerful enough dialouge, and vareity in humor. Very few modern day toons that I have seen have been truly original and witty in their designs of the story, characters, and dialouge. The only ones that have come to mind are Foster's and Kim Possible.

[billytheskink]

Yes, that sharp writing is one of the big things I love about Foster's. It's original, it's witty, it's ENTERTAINING. Whether it's Bloo drawing a straw or the occasional Star Wars parody quote, Foster's uses a broad range of humor and I love that. Dry, childish, simple, absurd, random... It all works so well.

Now, I love the Animaniacs (and Pinky and the Brain and Histeria!) for it's dry, sarcastic humor. I have yet to see a show match it (the Tick and Freakazoid were close, The Fairly Odd Parents has the very occasional moment where it nears such sarcastic brilliance). Those shows got some of the adults I knew out of bed early on saturday mornings and watching TV, they loved them.
Watching those shows now is great, kind of like watching them for the first time. Realizing the Pinky and the Brain episode "Meet John Brain" is a biting parody of Ross Perot's 1992 presidential campaign is just refreshing for some reason (maybe because I always liked that election in history class).

I really enjoy the simple humor of cartoons aimed at small children, not sure why. Sometimes I just like to laugh at the silly things in them (Dora the Explorer had an episode where she asks the viewers to help her boat jump over some sharks, I get it!), or I just really appreciate a simple joke.

But yeah, good writing and good humor is not in abundance these days, on all of television really. Nothing new, I guess.

[Mr. Marshmallow]

Simple humor is hard for me to enjoy in a kid's show like seeing someone flattened or blown up, it's lost it's edge a bit as I've grown older. But stupid things still make me laugh. Practically everything said and done on Family Guy, Freakazoid, and Robot Chicken requires little brain power.

Other times it's the remarks and the lines the characters say that make them so enjoyable. I remember one time in Darkwing Duck he was trying to teach his daughter, Gosalyn, the difference between real life and what happens in cartoons (their cartoons anyway).

And he got smacked by this bad guy and flattened like a pancake and I'll never forget what he said, as he groaned in pain:

"Normally a cartoon character would spring back and say yahoo, yipee, or something like that....I on the other hand am expierencing pain like you wouldn't believe".

I just loved that line. Which reminds me of a REAL good cartoon, a fine example of physical comedy in toons that I did laugh at: Super Dave. Thet old cartoon show about the stunt man who was bashed, beaten, broken, bruised or blown up every 5 seconds and everything he said was pain related.

"Okay kids, count how many of my fingers aren't broken"

That show was great.

[billytheskink]

By simple humor I also meant puns and visual gags that even toodlers can laugh at. I love that stuff.