Dragonball Z: The Live-Action Movie

[Nathander]

Originally Posted by Mr. Marshmallow

2. Your already negatively calling the film trash and not even giving it a benefit of a doubt so that already is a step backwards.

As I've said before, I have a hard time seeing them reasonably pull it off. If you could provide me an actual list of the actors and director for the film, I would appreciate it. I will concede that I may be quick in my put down of the film; at the same time, however, I have little to go on other than you telling me it's being done by an American group, which I can't honestly see doing Dragon Ball Z.

3. I never said they couldn't blow it, I said they couldn't blow it as bad as the Japanese movie. This movie will be far from boring no matter what they do.

And, again, I said that they have a much more likely chance of blowing it worse then the Japanese film, which is true because it's an adaptation of a series that originates from a completely different culture. Whether or not it's boring has little to do with it's genuine quality.

4. I HIGHLY disagree to GT being a bad series, I've been to several cons with people saying they liked it and I consider that a gross missassumption that American consumers like "bad taste" when what is considered bad is debatable.

I'm sorry, but I have a hard time comparing GT to the original series, especially because of how it destroys what Toriyama wanted to do with his own creative property. There's a fine line between taking "creative liberties" when working on a series by someone else and "being insulting to the material". By completely disregarding Toriyama's wishes concerning the series, that alone shows that they were (perhaps unintentionally) being insulting to the source material in the way they took it, as well as the fact that GT was only created to keep the money train coming that the series had started, though this backfired due to the fact of how badly the majority of the Japanese hated it.

Also for the record, I never found any record Toriyama saying he personally disliked GT, just that he didn't want to be involved.

I can't remember which one it was, but I recall reading in a DBZ magazine years ago (the one by Beckett, I think) that Toriyama disliked GT because he never even wanted the series to be created. They should have at least honored his wishes and allowed him to end the series in the way he wanted, instead of flat out refusing this.

Finally in regards to the villains, that one I do want to talk about because I love any talk about villain related issues. DBZ villains are not the same nor do they desire the same thing. Frieza was a monster who enjoyed killing everything that existed, he was a sadistic abomination who enjoyed that.

The idea of destroying everything was also shared by Buu and his various forms as well. Also, Frieza wished to gain immortality through the Dragon Balls, which was also Vegeta and Nappa's wish. Vegeta and Nappa, when introduced, also went on slaughtering anything they came across for the sheer fact that it was something they were able to do due to their power.

Cell acted quite different, he didn't mercilessly kill everyone he met nor did he originally desire to take over the world. If you recall, Cell's only mission in life was to become perfect, after that his programming came to an end and he could choose his own life. Gero never told him what to do after that.

None of the villains except Bibidi ever showed real interest in ruling the world, except possibly Gero though we never knew his full desires. However, Cell did slaughter basically everyone he met in the fact that he kept absorbing everything until he ran into 17 and 18. After becoming perfect, he decided he would simply kill everything in order to show his perfection. The outwardly stated reason for his evil is different then Frieza's, but his actions are still basically the same and, really, his outwardly stated reasons are just a slight cover to otherwise hide the fact that he's basically the same villain.

The Ginyu Force alone are unique, original villains.

Bumbling sidekick villains were hardly a new or unique character type in manga.

Villains don't need a reason to be evil, evil never did nor has it needed a reason to be evil. There are plenty of shows that have villains that don't explain how there evil or why they do it, in fact, majority of all villains are like that.

In shows aimed at a young audience? Yes. However, villains in these shows tend to be fairly shallow, one dimensional characters except that they're usually given a form of wit or one other personality trait in order to offset them being seen as utterly shallow, one dimensional characters.

In actual literature and most animes aimed at an older audience (and more recent anime aimed at younger), villains are often given a motive and a reason, thus making them actual characters instead of vague obstacles the heroes ultimately overcome. All I'm saying is that the villains are often used only as motivational factors for the heroes to fight against instead of actual characters with genuine or differing personalities in most anime aimed at younger audiences.

Trigun, Sailor Moon, Digimon, Ah My Goddess, Tenchi Muyo, Sonic the hedgehog, Slayers, Blue Seed. All of those shows and more have villains who have no explanations why they are evil.

Have you ever read any of the manga those series were based off of? They are, in fact, given reasons and explanations as to why they are evil, though these backstories were usually cut in the anime in order to save time and under the belief that the viewers were familiar with the source material. The exception here is Sonic, but considering Sonic was initially a video game series before being adapted, and villains in games those days were purposely only used as obstacles, the fact that reasons are not give can be forgiven.

Explanations are overrated anyway. Not everything needs a desire or a special origins to explain why its evil.

I agree. However, I think that while it can be good to have villains who don't have an explanation for simply stories, I don't think it can be denied that giving an explanation can improve the story at times, as it makes the villain more of a character that people can get to know instead of just viewing him/her as some obscure obstacle.

[Mr. Marshmallow]

I don't read the manga nor do I ever plan to because this isn't about the books, it's about the anime and from what I know of manga and anime, they can be two VERY different shows. I also don't really care how well or worse a show did in Japan compared to here because I don't live in Japan, that has nothing to do with me.

The Japanese hated Samurai Pizza cats, I loved it. I don't care what was changed and I don't care the fact the Japanese hated it, all I know is I liked what I saw and therefore I like it. Same goes for GT. I don't really care why it was made or how it was done or how the entire nation of Japan felt about it.

I liked what I saw and a lot of people I have spoken to seem to agree. Dragon Ball GT develops certain characters that got zero development in DBZ such as Uub, Pan. Plus, GT extended on the shows timeline, they didn't just ignore everything that happened and changed characters names or personalities.

Had they changed any of that, then I might be mad but regardless how Toriyama was involved or not involve, I still liked what was done just like how I will give this LIVE movie the chance to impress or upset me depending on what comes out. I don't go into anything with a negative mind at all.

The reason immortality was a desired wish was because of fear, something that is quite interesting for villains who supposedly are "one sided". Frieza was not that cut and dry, for a guy who felt he was god he sure didn't act like it. His fear of the Saiyans and the possibility of them overthrowing him shows he's not 100% sure.

Why else would he desire the dragon balls for immortality unless the notion of someone one day killing him could exist? Vegeta desired immortality to overthrow Frieza because he KNEW Frieza destroyed his life and his race, Vegeta is more then domiantion and power, it's also pride and patriotism.

Patriotism for his race, Vegeta started out as a villain and he's proven to be far more complex then the average bad guy. Villains don't HAVE to be pure evil either. The Ginyu force comical factor doesn't change the fact they were killers or the fact they had all intention of killing Vegeta, Krillin and Gohan.

Villains can be stupid, goofy, and polite and it's that unique mixture of qualities that makes villains unique. Take Nappa for example. He was NOT pure evil, he showed signs of compassion, friendship, and guilt. He felt bad when Vegeta killed his Saibaman, he felt guilty about killing off the Arlians, and he felt hurt when Vegeta betrayed him.

What kind of one dimensional villain who is cut and dry shows compassion for things? Even if it was for the briefest of moments, the fact Nappa said them showed that he was not pure evil and that there was something noticeably more to him. Same with Cell, Cell killed those people for food, not pleasure.

Granted he enjoyed it, his desire was not pleasure but survival, that's why he ran from fighting the Z fighters and hid his power level, to survive. When he became Perfect Cell he could have easily killed Mr. Satan and his cronies but he didn't, he also could have easily killed everyone in the news room he invaded.

If he was just a flat, one dimensional character he probably wouldn't have shown signs of restraint or holding back. Majin Buu was pure evil, he had NO reason for the way he was, he was totally and uncontrollably evil and I am referring to the real Buu, Kid Buu. All other forms were caused by his absorption of others.

But the pure Buu had no reason for his behavior and don't tell me Bibidi made him that way because if he had any influence over the development of Buu's emotions, he would have made him obey his master willingly which NO form of Buu did. That's another DIFFERENCE in the villains, not all killed their master.

17 and 18 killed Gero, Cell wouldn't have and I doubt 16 would have either. The Ginyu Force liked each other and were upset when one of their own died. These hardly sound like typical old, paper thin villains who show characteristics that usually your average villain would show nothing of the sort.

[Nathander]

Huh. I suppose I have to go back on my previous remarks, as it would appear you proved me wrong about my statements about the villains.

However, your initial statement makes it look like you think that anime series and the manga that inspires them are two completely separate things. You really can't treat it as such. Personally, to have a full enjoyment of a series, I feel you have to have a good deal of knowledge with both the source material and the adaptations, but that's just me and I don't necessarily ask others fully think as I do.

[Mr. Marshmallow]

When I watch any series as vividly and enjoy it as passionately as I do DBZ, you pick up on these little things. They may seem inane but they end up proving to be defining characteristics of the character. Same with the good guys, these little things they say and do reveal more about who they are then one realizes.

As far as the manga, I don't think they are totally 100% different but from what I have heard and read about they are different. I know Cell for example is referred to as a an "It" and not a male as the show does. I also know Garlic Jr. never existed in the manga since neither the movies nor the Black water mist arc came in there.

Same with Trigun. I read certain members of the Gung-Ho guns were never in there such as Chapel the Evergreen and Caine the Longshot. I also read Gray the 9 lives was not a robot in the manga and he was like 5 midgets or something standing on top of each other. I mention these to point out the differences.

I don't compare things or like to compare things because I know that all people do is look for the negatives in comparisons. I love Dragon Ball for what it is and even though it may have come from the manga and came from Japan, the way I have seen it is the way I have always loved it.

At times it can seem like though they are totally different versions of the same story, and at times it can seem like the exact same thing. But as Aerostar Monk knows all too well, it's not a big deal to me what was changed unless I know the source material extremely well (and that RARELY happens).

And even when I do, I judge things as they are not what they are not in comparison to the comics or manga or whatever they are based of. When the Spider man movie came out, I knew more then the average movie goer did about Spider man but it didn't bother me what was changed because I judged it as a movie.

Same with the Willy Wonka movies. I saw both and grew up on the original Gene Wilder one, yet I still loved the new one and found improvements that I enjoyed better then the first, and I found things that I liked better in the old one too. My point is I like both of them for different reasons.

I get different things out of each movie regardless where it came from or WHAT it came from. Of course that's just me.

[Medikor]

Originally Posted by Mr. Marshmallow

I Why else would he desire the dragon balls for immortality unless the notion of someone one day killing him could exist?

I just assumed that he wanted to live forever, thus, rule the universe forever. I like Frieeza, he's my favorite DBZ character along with Raditz. They made such strong first impressions. Raditz may have hardly been in the series but he certainly stole the show while he was in it.

[Mr. Marshmallow]

Well people usually do desire immortality to live forever however of the people in DBZ who have desired it (Vegeta, Frieza, Garlic Jr.) most have done it to ensure that they cannot die. Frieza feared the Saiyans, no matter how much he likes to mock and degrade them, he wiped out their whole planet and race for a reason.

He was fearful they might overpower him and I find it way too convenient that Frieza went after the Namek dragon balls after hearing about the Earth dragon balls over Raditz's transmission. Frieza knew Vegeta still existed and knew Vegeta harbored ideas of vengeance in his head towards him.

Frieza didn't want to die, as powerful as he truly was his experience with the Saiyans is proof enough that he knows people can one day become stronger then him. Plus the fear of the Super Saiyan is another testament to his fear of being killed by Saiyans, knowing how dangerous one of those could be in RL.

Raditz is actually one of the cooler characters and a lot of people don't give him much credit. In truth, he started everything, it was because of him that the chain of events that turned into the series occurred in the first place. It was Raditz who broke the ice to everyone about Saiyans existing and Goku's true nature.

He started everything and it was his clever use of transmitting Piccolo's statement about the dragon balls through his scouter to Vegeta and Nappa that brought them to Earth and thus lead them to Frieza going to Namek and so on and so forth. Sadly, Raditz wasn't very well liked by anyone it seemed.

Nappa is an elite Saiyan and Vegeta is a royal elite, while Raditz is a low class Saiyan along with the rest of Goku's family so it makes sense Vegeta wouldn't care about Raditz even though he was one of the last pure blooded Saiyans left. Low class Saiyans are also the only ones who still get weak when their tail is pulled.

Nappa and Vegeta didn't share this weakness and another funny trait about low class Saiyans is that they don't have 100% control as Oozarus (giant monkey forms). Low class Saiyans cannot speak, control, or remember what they do as Oozarus. Vegeta however could speak, think, and remember everything he did.

My favorite DBZ villain is Cell I absolutely love that guy, he's even my favorite anime villain of all time. If the movie ever gets to his saga depending on the movie's success, I would LOVE to see how he is portrayed. Just for the sake of seeing Cell on the big screen.

[Medikor]

Most of the time I see people say that they don't like Raditz "because he's so weak!" I really get the impression sometimes that a lot of the DBZ fans only like the strongest characters. I'm sure that's not the case though.
I always thought it would have been neat if Raditz survived and stayed a prominent character. I used to hope that Goten, wanting to know more about his uncle, gathered the balls and wished him back. But then it would probably just end up being too similar to the Gohan and Piccolo dinamic.
I always liked Piccolo and I hope he's done well in the movie. My favorite DBZ movie that I've seen is "Dead Zone". I love the atmosphere and music. And I like how the energy blasts are kind of kept a little less over the top. That may just be because it's still very early in the series, but I like it nonetheless.

[Mr. Marshmallow]

Sounds more like a fan fic idea then a show plot point Medi . But don't take the "weakling" comments to heart, because in a way that is a pretty shallow statement. Every villain at some point becomes weak. Look at Frieza, he was virtually indestructible and the most powerful villain of all time, now he's considered weak.

The Androids surpassed him, and Cell surpassed the Androids, and Majin Buu surpassed Cell and so on and so forth. Every villain at some point becomes weak because the Z fighters train themselves hard enough to be stronger to face each new foe, thus, what was once the strongest villain ever becomes second rate.

It's just a natural progress of power levels and its not limited to just Raditz. I loved "Fusion reborn" seeing all the villains escape from Hell, and Gogeta battling it out with that uber bad ass bad guy Janemba. But my favorite movie, number one for sure is the 2nd DBZ movie "The World's Strongest".

Like you said about Dead Zone, I loved the music in world's strongest. Plus the villains were so unique in this movie, even more so then the usual ones. Those bio-fighters had such outrageously weird powers and Dr. Wheelo was such a weird bad guy to fight, a giant brain in a souped robot suit.

[Medikor]

Originally Posted by Mr. Marshmallow

Sounds more like a fan fic idea then a show plot point Medi . But don't take the "weakling" comments to heart, because in a way that is a pretty shallow statement. Every villain at some point becomes weak. Look at Frieza, he was virtually indestructible and the most powerful villain of all time, now he's considered weak.

At least Frieeza got his happy ending through a "what if" bonus ending in the DBZ Budokai game.
So I started thinking the other day about the inevitable appearance of Hercule/Mr.Satin in the potential sequels. He could be one heck of a funny character if they find just the right guy to play him. I've heard some people suggest Randy Savage but that doesn't quite sit right with me.

[Mr. Marshmallow]

Originally Posted by Medikor

I've heard some people suggest Randy Savage but that doesn't quite sit right with me.

Actually he was one of the many sources that inspired the character of Mr. Satan. The whole macho, wrestler personality was adopted from wrestlers like Randy Savage and of course obvious American references.

It's not too much of a stretch really.