Goofball John Magee

[Nathander]

Originally Posted by Voxxyn

I see you're looking at this in terms of public embarassment. To me, the 'embarassment' aspect in IHFUMEUP(Frankie being unmasked from her Goof-Goof disguise) was just a poisoned extra topping to the realization that Frankie was forced to miss something she really wanted to see so she could instead clean an entire gigantic mansion "top to bottom", despite all the extra work and cleaning she did on what was supposed to be her day off thanks to a lazy jerk, and in face of the fact that she's already a very underappreciated and sympathetic person.

I never tried to downplay this. However, you're ignoring the fact that this has only happened to Frankie once. From what we can tell, Bloo has done this to Mac since his fourth birthday. Considering that Mac's torture has been on going, while Frankie's has only been once, I still see Mac's as worse due to the fact that he has to look to this about once every year; Frankie got sideswiped by it and didn't expect what happened to her, but that will only happen once IN HER WHOLE LIFE.

Also, if we want to look at this situation from a psychological view, Mac also got the worst of it. He's only a child; a mature child, but the events that happen to him in his life will prepare him for what happens to him in the future. From what's happening, it would appear that he's going to be prepared to hate his birthday, as well as develop a strong paranoia and distrust of his friends and an attempt to hide shame, as he's seen that by showing shame he gets taken advantage of. Frankie, on the other hand, is a full-grown adult and better prepared for crap like what happened to her by Goofball handed to her. While I'm in no way saying what happened to her was deserved, it's unlikely that what happened to her will affect her negatively in the long run. What happened to Mac, however, probably will as its one of the things shaping his growing/developing psyche.

And it was NOT just Goofball who made Frankie suffer. Bloo caused the chemistry set flood at the beginning, assisted Goofball with eating all the food, and essentially became his partner-in-crime. Goofball also had human friends over who made a huge mess. Mr. Herriman kept ordering Frankie to clean up all the messes caused by Goofball/Bloo, and was the one who made the decision which led to her missing the concert. And none of the other friends - not even WILT - felt any guilt about going to the concert without her(even though she worked very hard for the tickets and it was probably her decision to take the gang with her), nor did they even bring her anything from the event(a t-shirt, autograph, etc) as consolation.

Alright, yes, she does still have to deal with Herriman and Bloo. However, she's been dealing with Herriman and Bloo since the beginning of the series, and basically knows how to take care of them. The main problem was Goofball. Bloo has caused havoc time and time again, the only difference in this episode being the fact that he basically ended up assisting Goofball, who worked as the ringleader. While I think Bloo would have caused some form of mischief, as he does every day, I doubt it would have been as bad as it was without Goofball.

As for Herriman.....I'm torn on that. I didn't want to see Frankie miss her concert, but Herriman, at the same time, was merely doing what he felt was his duty, which was to ensure the correct running of the house. While Herriman is bossy and occasionally apathetic and cool to the plight of the other characters in the house, he is so for a reason, that being his devotion to his creator and to his job. I have a hard time finding him guilty of anything more than actually performing his assigned duty.

This I know I'm going to get flamed for, so let me stress this: I ADORE the character of Frankie. However, while it is unfair that she didn't get to go to her concert because of Bloo and Goofball, she didn't get to do so because she needed to do her job. While it was due to a misunderstanding and Herriman's own stubborness, she is still responsible for getting everything cleaned up regardless. She didn't deserve it, by any means; but if you're actually getting paid to do a job, you are the one expected to do it, no matter what. I've had situations at my job similar to Frankie's (her job, not the Goofball situation), and there have been many times where I've had to stay a hour or so late because some idiot had made a big mess right after I was finished with my regular hours. Saying "Oh, somone else could've done it/Bloo and/or Goofball should've cleaned it up since it's their mess" doesn't apply here because cleaning up messes is what Frankie's paid for. Again, I adore Frankie, and she did do her job correctly, but there's times where life spits in our eye. This is what happened to Frankie.

Even Madame Foster added insult to injury with how she was completely absent in this episode, and thus did nothing about the unfair suffering inflicted on her FLESH-AND-BLOOD GRANDDAUGHTER... and then got away unscathed with commiting some incredibly callous acts just two episodes later.

I find that to be out of line. Like Cassinni said, you have no way of knowing what Madam Foster could've been doing during this time, let alone that she knew what was going on. You're pointing figures and making false/unfounded accusations.

Mac definitely won't have it easy trying to trust his friends after the birthday scheme, or being able to enjoy birthdays in the near future. But Frankie, following her ordeal with Goofball, is still left as being a very underappreciated and 'taken advantage of' maid, who still has an oppressive rabbit as her boss, still has a wild blob of an IF to clean up after and put up with, and has a grandmother with the luxury of getting away with literally everything the TV-Y7 rating will allow.

Again, she's a full grown adult dealing with the problems she commonly has to deal with in order to do her job. However, we do know she has friends that she probably sees, or talks to, fairly often outside the house. Her missing this event is a one-time thing; as far as we can see, it doesn't happen on a very often basis. Mac, however, has no friends that we can tell other then the people he sees at the home (I include Goo in this, considering he only sees Goo at the home), and has know had this sanctuary shattered because of Bloo. Frankie didn't deserve what happened to her, and neither did Mac; the main difference is that Frankie is a full-grown woman capable of dealing with the stresses and problems of the world; Mac is not, and is clearly not capable of doing such yet.

In an admitedly weird and bizzare way, I deeply sympathize with Mac's ordeal. Mac was betrayed by the people supposed to be his best friends with a birthday plot to embarass him. I, as a Frankie fan, felt betrayed by people I greatly admire with an episode that was very painful and cruel. Just like it'll be very hard for Mac to fully forgive his friends for that humiliating experience, it's become very hard for me to fully forgive the show's writers and staff for making this episode and allowing it to air in the first place. I'm greatly hoping Season 5 will have a Frankie episode that will heal the wounds of this episode("Setting A President" was not enough) and celebrates her character instead of burying her, but there's still part of me that fears they'll end up creating another hurtful monstrosity of an episode(though I see IOHSFY is already considered as such by some).

You're making two very, very different divisions. In Mac's case, it's about a fictional character being unable to fully forgive fictional characters. In the case you apply to yourself, you, a real person, are refusing to forgive real people for merely attempting to do their job. Now, I have no problem with you being angered by and at the episode; I myself feel the same way towards IOHSFY. I do, however, have a problem with you aiming this anger towards the people who were merely attempting to make a quality program. They made a mistake making this episode, yes; however, as entertainers, I don't think their purpose was to malicious attack Frankie and her fans (I also don't think IOHSFY was an attack on Mac and his fans, to clear that up); they were merely attempting to entertain and in this case made a bad choice in how to. Nor do I think they need to apologize, really; every show will occasionally have a problematic episode, and that's what Goofball's episode was. I see no reason to be personally angered by the creators and writers of the show/episode.

[Voxxyn]

You keep mentioning "ONE TIME ONLY" as if 1) the episode established that Frankie was a long-time concertgoer on her free time, that missing this particular one wasn't such a big deal, and that she'll nonetheless be able to attend many more concerts in the future, or 2) some kind of event happened in a future episode where Frankie actually gets to enjoy herself for a change, thus possibly reversing it's hurtfulness. As far as I know, neither of these things actually happened(with the latter, HOPEFULLY only "at the moment").

The concert wasn't built up as a common leisure, it was a rare opportunity for a much-overworked person like Frankie to finally get some kind of reward for all she does, and like I said, she undoubtedly worked very hard just to save up her money and get those tickets. If she missed it because of a genuine emergency that threatened the house(willingly or begrudgingly, but Frankie is the type of person that would willingly sacrifice something for the sake of those closest to her), I wouldn't have minded at all.

She missed because of a lazy jerk who caused her to do an unreasonable amount of extra work on what was supposed to be her DAY OFF, and actually got away with it unscathed, while Frankie remains a very underappreciated and overworked person who continues to be denied the chance to actually enjoy herself for a change.

So, yes, Frankie missing the concert IS a very big deal to me.

You make good points in general, but I still stand by my overall feelings.

[Mr. Marshmallow]

Yeah.....this seems like very raw territory now so I'm not gonna try and burst any heads here with anyone, I do have a few things I want to get off my chest on this whole issue. First off, I want to say that while I will never sugarcoat what happened to Frankie with Goofball was a total nightmare.

Even if it was a single concert or 20, it was really hard to see her get pushed like that and all because of someone who was so inconsiderate, lazy, and insensitive to Frankie's feelings. I hate the way she was treated and yet oddly enough, I can actually stand to watch this episode.

More so then the "Surprise" one. Why you ask? Because of mainly 3 things, 1: The only part that was REALLY like physically hard to watch was the scrubbing scene, 2: Frankie as we all know has very few episodes so good or bad, I think apart of me still watches it because it IS still about Frankie.

Take what you can get in a manner of speaking. And finally 3: Frankie at least accepted her beef with Goofball and left on a semi happy note, or rather I should say she left feeling a means of "okay, glad that's over". But as far as Mac's episode with "Surprise", that I physically CANNOT watch.

I don't like Mac over Frankie, but when you look at Mac's problem in that episode realistically....it hurts me to think what Mac went through. I can't see how someone becoming pscyhologically paranoid over the day of his birth is even conceivably funny, he is LITERALLY freaking scared of his B-day.

And why so, from a terrible accident, death of a family member, bad test grade, NO it was his freaking best friend! Bloo's been an ass before but this was way too far, I cannot tolerate the fact he was messing with Mac's head so carelessly, especially for someone who is supposed to be his best friend.

Not only that, but unlike Frankie's torment, Mac didn't get ANY relief. He was left more scared, more upset, and even MORE humilated. The episode ended with him worse off then he started. Do you know how HARD it is to actually get a phobia forced into you outside of childhood trauama or accidents?

Very hard, and the fact Bloo thought it was hilarious hurt me even more. I think Wilt said it best in the "Sight for Sore eyes" episode:

"I'm sorry but WHAT A JERK!"

[Nathander]

Originally Posted by Voxxyn

You keep mentioning "ONE TIME ONLY" as if 1) the episode established that Frankie was a long-time concertgoer on her free time, that missing this particular one wasn't such a big deal, and that she'll nonetheless be able to attend many more concerts in the future, or 2) some kind of event happened in a future episode where Frankie actually gets to enjoy herself for a change, thus possibly reversing it's hurtfulness. As far as I know, neither of these things actually happened(with the latter, HOPEFULLY only "at the moment").

The concert wasn't built up as a common leisure, it was a rare opportunity for a much-overworked person like Frankie to finally get some kind of reward for all she does, and like I said, she undoubtedly worked very hard just to save up her money and get those tickets. If she missed it because of a genuine emergency that threatened the house(willingly or begrudgingly, but Frankie is the type of person that would willingly sacrifice something for the sake of those closest to her), I wouldn't have minded at all.

She missed because of a lazy jerk who caused her to do an unreasonable amount of extra work on what was supposed to be her DAY OFF, and actually got away with it unscathed, while Frankie remains a very underappreciated and overworked person who continues to be denied the chance to actually enjoy herself for a change.

So, yes, Frankie missing the concert IS a very big deal to me.

You make good points in general, but I still stand by my overall feelings.

Thing is, Frankie can go to another concert sometime, whereas Mac can never relive all those birthdays that've been ruined for him. Thing is, Frankie can probably enjoy going to whatever concert she eventually goes to, while Mac has probably had the notion of birthday parties completely and utterly ruined for him by this event and those preceding it.

No, going to a concert wasn't built up as a general leisure; however, Frankie has more chances to go to a concert then Mac has to have an enjoyable birthday. Also, Frankie is a grown woman, and thus this strike to her psyche was nowhere near as devastating as the strike to Mac's was because of the impressionability of age. Frankie's psyche has already, for the most part, finished developing; Mac's is still in development. That being the case, Frankie isn't likely to develop any kind of mental trauma from her run in with Goofball, but Mac could very easily develop a form of paranoia (and we're shown that he has) over the events in "I Only Have Surprise for You" concerning something that's supposed to be a joyful celebration.

I also noticed that you said Frankie missing the concert was a very big deal for you. Now, again, I can't blame you or call you out for that, because I tend to do it too. However, I'm trying my best to not put my own personal views into the matter and look at it from a purely logical standpoint, based on that alone. That's not to say that I haven't slipped up in doing such, but I do have to say that, while I can understand your anger over the episode, I think you take the episode slightly too personally. Yuu're more than free to have personal opinions, of course, but I think you overreact slightly in consideration of this episode in that it was some sort of attack on Frankie or her fanbase (and I, for my part, don't believe IOHSFY was an attack on Mac and his fanbase, as I said in my last part). Maybe it is an attack and I'm wrong, but I'm afraid I just don't see it. I can't really argue this issue, as it's an issue of personal preference, so our own motives/views will derive too significantly to actually intelligently argue this point.

Also, this isn't to say that you don't use logic in your arguments; you argue your points beautifully. I'm just saying that I think you can be a bit overzealous in your protection of Frankie.

Originally Posted by Mr. Marshmallow

Even if it was a single concert or 20, it was really hard to see her get pushed like that and all because of someone who was so inconsiderate, lazy, and insensitive to Frankie's feelings.

I agree that it was horrible, and if it sounded like I was attempting to sugarcoat it, I was not (as I've said several times before). I just want that to be perfectly clear to everyone.

And finally 3: Frankie at least accepted her beef with Goofball and left on a semi happy note, or rather I should say she left feeling a means of "okay, glad that's over". But as far as Mac's episode with "Surprise", that I physically CANNOT watch.

I don't like Mac over Frankie, but when you look at Mac's problem in that episode realistically....it hurts me to think what Mac went through. I can't see how someone becoming pscyhologically paranoid over the day of his birth is even conceivably funny, he is LITERALLY freaking scared of his B-day.

And why so, from a terrible accident, death of a family member, bad test grade, NO it was his freaking best friend! Bloo's been an ass before but this was way too far, I cannot tolerate the fact he was messing with Mac's head so carelessly, especially for someone who is supposed to be his best friend.

Not only that, but unlike Frankie's torment, Mac didn't get ANY relief. He was left more scared, more upset, and even MORE humilated. The episode ended with him worse off then he started. Do you know how HARD it is to actually get a phobia forced into you outside of childhood trauama or accidents?

Very hard, and the fact Bloo thought it was hilarious hurt me even more. I think Wilt said it best in the "Sight for Sore eyes" episode:

"I'm sorry but WHAT A JERK!"

More or less, that's exactly what I've been attempting to convey in this conversation. Frankie's ordeal, at least, ended on a semi-sweet note. Not so with Mac.

However, in the same way I don't think Goofball was intentionally cruel, I also don't believe Bloo had intended to be cruel. I think, more or less, Bloo was atttempting to put some form of humorous spin to what he was doing and get Mac to appreciate it. Of course, being the Bloo we all know and love, he's unable to comprehend the fact that Mac doesn't exactly find his own personal degradation funny. So, to that degree, I don't have much of a beef with Bloo, though it confounds me as to how he was able to convince everyone else to go along with him, since you'd have though either Frankie or Wilt would've voiced a problem with it. But then again, I don't exactly have high views of IOHSFY. I'd give it a D, just like I did this episode.

[Mr. Marshmallow]

Originally Posted by Nathander

However, in the same way I don't think Goofball was intentionally cruel, I also don't believe Bloo had intended to be cruel. I think, more or less, Bloo was atttempting to put some form of humorous spin to what he was doing and get Mac to appreciate it. Of course, being the Bloo we all know and love, he's unable to comprehend the fact that Mac doesn't exactly find his own personal degradation funny.

What Goofball actually did was intentionally cruel to an extent. The fact that he didn't care about ANYONE even slightly but himself, resulted in cruel actions and even when Frankie brought it to his attention, he still ignored her feelings and considerations.

I don't think Bloo was trying to put a funny spin on anything, tricking someone into thinking your being tricked only to trick them AGAIN is nothing short of a mind game. Bloo knows Mac's birthday phobia because HE started it, and he convinced everyone to see the humor in it.

Which I felt was out of character for the others. Pranks aren't nearly this elaborate and further more, there is a FINE LINE between a prank and a mean spirited act, this was a mean spirited act that resulted in nothing more then Mac's utter, total, and complete humilation.

Bloo played off his fear to get him to do what he wanted him to do, he USED Mac. That's what jerks do to people, not friends, friends don't use each other. Making fun of someone's fear is one thing, but it's not funny at all when the fear your making fun of was STARTED by your actions.

This is why I have the occasional beef with Bloo, I can name 5 crappy and snotty things he's done to Mac right off the top of my head. He's done a jack load of stuff that has earned him a meanstreak now and then, no matter how little or large it may come out, I think Bloo still has it.

Ever take a look to see how Bloo talks to Mac or what he says to him in general? Not too much different then how Goofball carelessly ripped on Frankie's name, and come on, we all know he knew how to say it right.

[Nathander]

Originally Posted by Mr. Marshmallow

What Goofball actually did was intentionally cruel to an extent. The fact that he didn't care about ANYONE even slightly but himself, resulted in cruel actions and even when Frankie brought it to his attention, he still ignored her feelings and considerations.

True to a degree. While he was intentionally doing what he was doing, and doing it regardless of others and thus showing a cruel streak, I doubt there was any actual maliciousness in it, which is the thing. Same with Bloo; he's self-serving and apathetic, but I don't think his cruelty ever has a malicious base to it.

I don't think Bloo was trying to put a funny spin on anything, tricking someone into thinking your being tricked only to trick them AGAIN is nothing short of a mind game. Bloo knows Mac's birthday phobia because HE started it, and he convinced everyone to see the humor in it.

Which I felt was out of character for the others. Pranks aren't nearly this elaborate and further more, there is a FINE LINE between a prank and a mean spirited act, this was a mean spirited act that resulted in nothing more then Mac's utter, total, and complete humilation.

I felt that it was fairly out of character also that the others would willing participate. However, for it to truly qualify as a mean spirited act, Bloo must have meant it mean-spiritedly, and I honestly don't believe Bloo puts enough thoughts into his actions to be truly capable of performing a seriously malice act. He says what he wants to say and does what he wants to do; again, there's a slight form of intentional cruelty in that he's self-serving, but I don't think he'd ever actually be purposefully malicious.

Bloo played off his fear to get him to do what he wanted him to do, he USED Mac. That's what jerks do to people, not friends, friends don't use each other. Making fun of someone's fear is one thing, but it's not funny at all when the fear your making fun of was STARTED by your actions.

Again, I have a hard time believing that Bloo himself has the capability of knowing what he's doing is cruel, which is what actually counts in making it a malicious act. Since there was no malice intended by the actual starter, then there can be no true malice within the act; there can, however, be undeliberate malice, and that's what we see in both Goofball's episode and IOHSFY.

This is why I have the occasional beef with Bloo, I can name 5 crappy and snotty things he's done to Mac right off the top of my head. He's done a jack load of stuff that has earned him a meanstreak now and then, no matter how little or large it may come out, I think Bloo still has it.

Ever take a look to see how Bloo talks to Mac or what he says to him in general? Not too much different then how Goofball carelessly ripped on Frankie's name, and come on, we all know he knew how to say it right.

Yeah, Bloo has done a lot of bad stuff. however, in turn, he's ended up having several things go wrong for him and having to pay the price for it, kind of a karmic reversal. In a lot of ways, you could see Bloo and Mac as Goofus and Gallant, respectively; Gallant does all his chores, is a great kid, blah blah blah......meanwhile, Bloo's a lazy moron who tends to do something wrong and, inevitably, is paid that deed back. I have a hard time having a grudge with Bloo considering that he never really intends malice, and that he usually gets paid back for anything he does wrong.

[Mr. Marshmallow]

I fail to see how it's not deliberate when Bloo is fully aware of Mac's fear of birthdays, and Bloo knows he is responsible for creating that fear. He knows he started it, he knows he developed the events that created that fear and he knew how to use it to do it again.

I also disagree with the whole "and I honestly don't believe Bloo puts enough thoughts into his actions to be truly capable of performing a seriously malice act". Consier the magnitude of this prank and it's insanely overly elborate nature, that's pretty well thought out if you ask me.

Bloo also may be a moron but he knows the difference between saying an insult and saying something nice, he's not unaware that words and actions can hurt people. He knew Herriman would get laughed at by posting up that video in WWW and he did it anyway, even after Frankie realized what she'd done.

The sad fact is, Bloo mostly thinks about himself, just like Goofball, the only difference being Goofball is so incredibly lazy and laidback he doesn't feel the need to do anything. Where as Bloo will go out of his way to have people pay attention to him, do what he wants, and listen to what he has to say.

Bloo's not the brightest blob in the world but he sure as hell knows how to hurt people. Far as karma goes, Bloo usually doesn't get payback unless he does something majorly bad. Half the rest of the time he's free to mock, jab, and verbally belittle Mac 24/7.

And the lack of karma comeback is SEVERELY evident in "Surprise".

[Nathander]

Originally Posted by Mr. Marshmallow

I also disagree with the whole "and I honestly don't believe Bloo puts enough thoughts into his actions to be truly capable of performing a seriously malice act". Consier the magnitude of this prank and it's insanely overly elborate nature, that's pretty well thought out if you ask me.

Allow me to clarify my meaning: it's obvious he can put enough thought into a project in how it's to play out; I don't think, however, that he puts any thought into the possible repercussions of what he intends to do. Yes, it was elaborate, but I doubt his actual intention in creating it was to shame Mac. Just my own opinion on the matter.

Bloo also may be a moron but he knows the difference between saying an insult and saying something nice, he's not unaware that words and actions can hurt people. He knew Herriman would get laughed at by posting up that video in WWW and he did it anyway, even after Frankie realized what she'd done.

You're absolutely right. This point I have to concede to.

Bloo's not the brightest blob in the world but he sure as hell knows how to hurt people. Far as karma goes, Bloo usually doesn't get payback unless he does something majorly bad. Half the rest of the time he's free to mock, jab, and verbally belittle Mac 24/7.

And the lack of karma comeback is SEVERELY evident in "Surprise".

Actually, my own personal opinion is that, on a general scale, Bloo tends to get at least some karmic comeback eventually. However, I agree wholeheartedly that there was none in "Surprise", and that was one of the things that bothered me about that episode.

[Voxxyn]

Since Frankie's birthday was revealed in "Bus the Two of Us" to be July 25, just two days before the premiere airdate of "IOHSFY"(Meaning that I'll assume Mac's birthday is July 27), you know what I personally think would be really sweet?

Frankie taking off the 25th to 27th of next July with Mac, so they can quietly celebrate both of their birthdays, away from the house. No tricks, no underlying cruelty, no Bloo. Just some quiet bonding time between two honest and decent people who really deserve to be given a break. Mac might at first be unwilling to trust even Frankie as she was part of Bloo's birthday scheme, but I think he would come around and understand that Frankie at least is a decent person who genuinely cares about him, and is someone who he can sympathize with in terms of being unfairly slighted by life(regardless of difference in psyche and emotional strength).

...again, that's just an idea, and probably a dumb one at that. I certainly don't see it happening in an actual episode. I just wanted to share a glimmer of optimism to counter the foul taste and bad memories left by Goofball and Bloo's actions.

(And also, to anyone who's wondering, I AM NOT PROMOTING MACxFRANKIE ROMANCE. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH A GROWN-UP ADULT AND A CHILD OF OPPOSING GENDERS BONDING IN A PURE 'BROTHER AND SISTER' WAY.)

[Nathander]

I agree with you. I've been waiting for an episode waiting for a stronger tie to the sister-brother relationship I think Mac and Frankie have developed throughout the series. I had hoped that "Emancipation Complication" would've given us this, due to the description given by Cartoon Network, but I've honestly come to think that the person who wrote the descriptions for EC and MBION didn't even bother to actually watch the episodes. While I'm uncertain it would play out exactly the way you set up, I think that allowing Mac and Frankie's "little brother-big sister" relationship to be a little more obvious would be a good idea and a step in the right direction.

But back to Goofball.....

Yeah, even though it may have sounded like I was trying to sugarcoat the character, he was a jerk. That, and a poorly written character. Again, my biggest beef with this episode was that it just felt so.....off, and Goofball's behavior, created to make him seem more and more like a teenage boy, actually put me off of the "ironic twist" ending, since they played it up so heavily. Not only did he decide to hide his nose, which would immediately make him recognizable as an IF, but he had to do homework where, as far as I can tell, IFs seem to be discouraged in classrooms for the most part.

Yeah.....just, in my final belief, not a well put together episode, or a well-made character. He was a jerk, and I guess they were trying to associate that making him likeable, since one of Bloo's most enduring attributes is his jerky attitude, but he just wasn't a likeable jerk like Bloo. He was just.....well, a jerk.