Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles

[AerostarMonk]

Actually, when it comes to comics or things based on comics changes of gender or species is not as big of a deal as one would think. They happen quite often and for very contrived and convoluted reasons. Shredder never lost anything from being an alien. He retained all of his usual history. He just gained another identity and an additional thousand years of backstory. And despite being an alien, he was every bit as human as his alter ego. In fact that was a major plot point, that Shredder had essentially gone native. It just happened to be that he chose to cling to the dark side of humanity. I thought all of this was great character development and made for a really good story, and they really sold it too. They didn't cop out and have the real Saki stuffed in some unnamed closet while an alien masqueraded as him. You know the usual comic book cop out. Besides is a little thing like this upsets you than some of the changes the comic book does to its own continuity would make you rip telephone books.

As for the Doom Patrol, the somewhat two dimesional portrayl of the 60s sqaud mixed well with the overall theme of the episode and indeed the entire season, that the Titans had outgrown their teachers and masters and are now the keepers of their own fates. Although it probably wasn't intentional. The real reason why the Doom Patrol may have seemed so flat is because the actual stars of the show and who would ultimately be the story arc's main villains required more depth than a team that was going to be phased out in two eps and ultimately were only there to serve as exposition. Borderline lazy writing? Yes. But if you look at it my way you sort make more peace with entire thing. Plus I still thing it was cool to see the Doom Patrol on tv, especially after I read more about them. And dropping at least one stars' secret identity wasn't going to hurt the show a bit.

[Mr. Marshmallow]

I actually don't follow comic books that well outside of Spider Man and Batman, and I don't own any of their issues (except one) I just know about their histories through internet web sites, Wikipedia, and comic book encyclopedias I buy and/or get as gifts. The changes don't really affect me because I don't know what's being changed.

Even after finding out what has been changed, I find it still doesn't bother me. But I know enough about Shredder to know he is NOT an alien, that changes his existence entirely. He can be as ruthless and menacing as the human Shredder, but the fact is, I still find him being an alien a perversion of the character because no matter how cool he looks, he's still.....a fake.

That's essentially the problem. He is not real, he is a costume, a persona, a shell, his TRUE form is not the Shredder, the Shredder is merely a toy he is controlling. That's what bugs me. I have always liked human villains who have no powers because they prove they can hold their own against heroes with super powers. Like Lex Luthor, Syndrome, The Riddler, Slade, Kingpin.

All of them are completely human and have no "super powers" or any kind of unnatural ability. The fact Shredder is revealed to be an alien in the show not only discredits his identity status, but also his "power status". If he was a robot suit, he could have been capable of much stronger and more powerful feats then what he did on the show.

Something that advanced surely could be capable of much more destructive capabilities and prove more useful to the whole alien/robot suit thing. However, don't bother saying it was the "element of surprise" or "keep them fooled into thinking he's human" because that to me makes no sense. If this Shredder really wanted them dead, he wouldn't bother half assing his skills.

He would use all his abilities to kill them and if that alien can produce a toy sophisticated enough to walk, talk, and fight like a human, it can certainly go the extra mile and do a bit more. As for the Doom Patrol, they could have been on for 2 hours in an episode and I still wouldn't have liked them.

A good enough character can hold his/her own and prove to be interesting even in a few minutes, sometimes without even saying a word. The Doom Patrol seem to be uninteresting people to me, hell, Beast Boy didn't even seem to get along with them that well and he used to work with them.

It's the same with characters like Killer Moth. While his "The Batman" image was more accurate to the comics (again DC encyclopedia), the Teen Titans version to me seemed more interesting even though he was totally different from his comic book counterpart. He was more lethal, evil, dangerous, and formidable.

I never knew a thing about him when I first laid eyes on him, whether he was a comic book creation or just a made up bad guy like Billy Numerous was. But the fact is I enjoyed him none the less, I was entertained by him and I enjoyed him. Didn't matter how accurate or inaccurate he was.

At the end of the day, no matter what source material anything comes from be it a book, a video game, an anime, a cartoon, or a TV series, if I am entertained then accuracy will always take a back seat in my book. If some things are accurate and do tie in, that's great, more power to them, but not being accurate will not make me angry or make me verbally crucify the creators for not doing this the "right way".

[AerostarMonk]

Actually, if you read both Pre and Post-Crisis issues featuring Killer Moth, you'll find that both are techincally accurate. While Teen Titans is obviously a representation of Post-Crisis Charaxes, minus the cannabilism, and the Batman is Pre-Crisis wacky 60's villain that actually mixes in the Charaxes origin, minus Neron of course.

Though flat, I still enjoyed the Doom Patrol. I always will like the Doom Patrol. While not being all they could've been in those two eps, that little taste was enough for me to like them. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one.

As for Shredder, you're forgetting comic book and tv logic. Sure from a realistic standpoint it would make sense for the Shredder to kill the Turtles right away, but by that view, it would be impossible to beat the Flash, the massive collateral damage by superheroes would've killed more people than they've saved, Batman would simply kill all of his villains and so on and so on. Shredder not dispoing of the Turtles is simply another victim of the logic that is serial storylines.

I can understand you being upset with the changing of Shredder's species, but I really think it's no worse than putting Doom on a space station and endowing him with superpowers. For me it's a storyline that worked. We're at the point where we're forced to agree to disagree.

As for the subject of nostalgia, I would willingly throw many of the worst ideas from my childhood to the bin. Childhood memories will never stand over quality. I also don't stand for the, "It's for kids" argument. The best shows and movies can entertain kids and adults alike without pandering to either. If I remember correctly Star Wars was also for kids, but that didn't stop it from being the phenomenon it became. The best shows and movies supposedly aimed only at kids are the ones that reveal new levels as the kids get older, not stay in a nostalgia-lined time warp where they're forced to send their minds back 10 years to recapture lightning in a bottle. Just to give an example, as a kid you may have liked Mr Rogers and loved the trolley going to the land of make-believe. As an adult you come to appreciate some of the long-dead special guests, the once in a lifetime trips to factories, and the complex piano playing of the great John Costas. No, the best do not pander, they simply try to be all they can be.

[Mr. Marshmallow]

Uh actually Batman killing his enemies was never the point I was trying to make. Every villain more or less is trying to KILL their opponent. My point was it was illogical to have a robot suit that is clearly capable of doing more and not use its full potential since Shredder IS trying to kill the ninja turtles.

He always has, every TV show, every cartoon, every movie. My point was that the Shredder suit could have easily killed the Turtles since its built by alien advanced technology and since the alien wanted to kill the Turtles, it makes no sense why the alien would have held anything back.

I know it's a show but the point is we have to take the characters as if they were real and look at it from their POV. Far as Doom, no matter how he got his powers in the movie, he was still Dr. Doom, not a creature inside a Dr. Doom suit or costume, he was Dr. Doom and that's my issue with it.

[AerostarMonk]

Doctor Doom never had powers. Well, he did, but he only acquired them through keen intellect. Giving him powers actually sorta undermines what intellectual boundaries he overcame simply to gain them. A small change that results in a rather huge character difference if you ask me. But I've enjoyed pretty much all the Dooms thus far with McMahon standing as my least favorite.

And the potential thing figures right into my point about Batman not killing. It's illogical for him to leave them alive. The prison and mental health institutions might as well have revolving doors in every cell, the redundancy of continuing to just apprehend his opponents. If would just simply snap a neck, no more lives lost by the hand of the Joker, Scarecrow, take your pick. He's completley capable of it and yet he holds back.

Same with the Flash, would anyone who could move faster than the speed of light honestly ever have any trouble with anybody?

Let's use James Bond, if only someone would've stabbed him or shot him in the head instead of explaining the plan and then using the world's most elaborate death trap.

What I'm saying is I think you're using comic book and cinema's natural fallacy with logic against Shredder as fodder for why you don't like how they've changed him. If you don't like him because they've changed his species, that's fine, but don't lay the logic bomb on him and then hold back on practically every other villain and hero strewn across the fictional landscape.

[Mr. Marshmallow]

It's nothing to do with cinemas it's the fact that his suit is under question, not all other villains or movie villains or anything like that. What I don't like is Shredder in this show has been reduced to a toy, a suit, not a person but a toy version of what could have been. Far as Doom goes, the only thing that was tweaked was power accquistion.

He didn't shoot thunder clouds out of his mouth or sprout dragon wings, he is still Dr. Doom. The only thing that was tweaked was how he gained his abilities, now had they changed his abilities and what they'd do, that'd be a big problem. But it's like Spider man and the web shooters thing. That was a change, but not so much a change as say finding out Peter Parker is from Venus or something.

Far as Batman goes, he follows the same logic any other hero would: NO killing. Batman does not have the right to take the life of another, nor does any other super hero deserve to. Heroes only do it if it's a last resort and even then, I bet you a million dollars they mentally tear themselves apart for the rest of their lives over it.

Superman could easily kill Lex Luthor or any of his foes, but the fact he does not stoop to such a level shows he is better then them because he has not let the evil they represent corrupt his identity. Batman Begins made it very clear:

Henri Ducard: Your compassion is a weakness your enemies will not share.
Bruce Wayne: That's why it's so important. It separates us from them.

Every life is sacred, no matter how disgusting or despicable that life may treat others. Every super hero (sans the Punisher) never takes the life of another, no matter how much easier their life would become if they did. Batman knows if he killed Joker he would have saved many, many lives.

But if he resorted himself to taking Joker's life, he'd be no better then Joker because he made the decision that he should die. Turtles is a prime example. Look at the first movie, Splinter had no intention of killing Shredder. Shredder dropped himself into that garbage truck, and killed himself by knocking all that debris on top of his head.

[AerostarMonk]

Yes, but do you see how illogical that is. Any good law enforcement officer would put down a suspect if it meant saving an innocent citizen. Just because it's superhero law doesn't mean it's logical. Besides, don't pull out Batman Begins as an actual defense. The logic goes in and out on that movie. There's a microwave transmitter that makes water turn to steam but leaves humans alone? Even if it was somehow designed that way, a few tweaks here and there would have been much more effective than any fear toxin ever could be.

And superheroes do kill. Just ask Wonder Woman, she killed Maxwell Lord at the end of the first volume to Countdown to Infinite Crisis. SHe had to to save Superman. You do what you must so others may live or die.

So Shredder not killing the Turtles does not undercut his abilities, he's just another in the long line of victims of comic book logic.

Now, instead of arguing about what you don't like about the '03 series and what I don't like, or at least what I can remember about the '87 series, can we talk about what we liked about them both. I would really like to hear what you liked about the '03 series, minus Fast Forward, seeing as I've heard all about that already.

[Mr. Marshmallow]

That was my point exactly, HAS to save it. It's all a matter of "life in danger" thing, it's only used at the last possible point and not something you do just to make your life easier. Also, your Batman logic is talking about scientific logic, not sociological logic. The gas they used was just that, a gas to infect people.

Not blow them up. But physics in superhero movies is a redundant thing either way so anyways, your forgetting the fact super heroes are not IN the law. Not really. If they were apart of the law, they wouldn't be having secret identities, colorful costumes, and doing all the things that they do.

Every costumed character exists outside of the law and realistically, is not bound to DO anything because of this costumed life. It is what you choose to do with your identity that makes you good or bad. The Turtles for example don't have to fight evil or crime, they choose to. Shredder doesn't have to be evil, he chooses to.

Superheroes could easily kill IF they wanted to, but the fact they hold killing in such a way proves there worth because they are choosing not to kill even though they could easily do it. Same thing with Vash in Trigun, same thing with Goku in Dragon Ball Z, they have all shown this "no kill" policy.

Batman provides another good example in "Mask of the Phantasm". Look how he fights crime, look how Phantasm does it.

[AerostarMonk]

Yes but they do enforce the law evem if they are outside of it and seem to be bound by the same ideals. Realistically speaking, most heroes, sociologoically would be shut down weeks if not days after their debut. Their unchecked power and collateral damage poses too much of a threat to regular life. Mostly the only heroes you'd ever see if they did exist would be government or corporate sponsored and easily controlled. The "no kill" vigilante landscape in so many hero comics is simply a pipe dream. If you don't think so, take up a skill and start busting some heads in the next few years on the street, get all your friends to try it too. Not trying to insult you, I'm just saying that true sociological or psychological logic does not apply to the nature of superhero comics and their tv spinoffs.

I mean really think about it, it would've saved Gotham a lot of pain, especially Batman, had he just killed the Joker. No philosophy about it, after he racked up his first 1,000 kills and jail and Arkham don't seem to be working, it's time to put this guy down. And the same can be said of many other villains as well.

So now that we've both covered that we're both to stubborn to budge on this issue, can we please move on?

Now that we've officially moved on, I'd like to say I love the Technodrome of the old series. It gives me a nice Kirby vibe, and a little of ol King Kirby goes a long way with me.

I also like to say I love the detail that was brought into designing New York. In subsequent series even the fantastic CGI movie New York could've been Anyplace, USA. The 87 series and movie were pretty much the only ones that tried to realistically convince us of the story's location, and location for a story like this is important.

[Mr. Marshmallow]

All I mean and state on the no kill policy is things the superheroes they themselves have said or done. Murdering a villain no matter how horrible they are would torment them mentally for days on end, just as bad as if the villain killed many innocents like you said. My point here is just the guilt.

Krang is one of my favorite aspects of the 80s series since were on the Technodrome. As much as I love him and that super cool robot suit of his, I think it would be wise to not bring up the whole Dimension X thing if he ever came into the movies. Mainly because I don't think it would do much.

The fact he was in Dimension X didn't really have much baring on the show other then we knew he was located there. The dimension itself wasn't used much and had they said the drome was buried underground somewhere, would have worked just as easily. I guess what I am saying is the fact he's from X is fine, just having the technodrome always being there didn't do much.

Like I said before, the one thing I love best about the show is the huge cast of characters and the animations on them. They had LOADS of mutants on that show, all detailed quite vividly and were colorful, unique looking, and always got my attention. I always like seeing variety of monsters, mutants, and freaks when it comes to bad guys.

And what the 80s series did so well was introduce me to so many characters, characters not even the new series brought in. Guys like Ground chuck, Dirtbag, Slash, Wingnut, Mutagen man, Mondo Gecko, Rat King, and Baxter Stockmen. And like I said before, this image of Baxter was one I enjoyed regardless if he was white or black or Asian in the comics.

It was actually a big deal for me because I had never seen someone use the idea of a fly as a villain or a mutant like that, I liked it and I found it interesting to see a fly as a bad guy. Not to mention the fact his appearance was just so memorable with those big red eyes, ripped lab coat and that whiny voice of his.