Is animated romance dead?

[kageri]

Originally Posted by pitbulllady

I myself have some serious issues with the notion of child or child-like characters being involved in a real, romantic relationship. Even in an animated series, at some point you just have to go, "now THAT is just TOO unrealistic"! Having a crush is one thing, but being part of a real, I-want-to-spend-the-rest-of-my-life-with-only-you-and-have-your-children relationship is another, totally, when you are talking about characters that are, or should be, in elementary school. Even a bright child character still does not have the level of emotional developement to handle that sort of thing, let alone the hormones for it. The same more or less would apply to non-human characters who have basically the same level of emotional and intellectual developement as a young child. I've been around more kids as part of my career than most people will ever even see in their entire lifetimes(which is probably a good thing for those other people), and I have never known any two children to really be "in love" with each other. Yes, they have crushes, and those typically last no more than a few days, a couple of weeks at the most, but there's no romance involved, unless you can count a boy dropping a dead frog down some girl's back as a sign of "romance", since that's often how young boys display their crush on a particular girl. Like I said, with those who are emotionally undeveloped, they are not capable of anything that most of us would consider romantic love. My own feelings on the matter of child characters having love affairs is that kids already grow up soon enough, so there is no point in forcing a child, even an animated one, into adult behavior and denying them that very brief time of innocence. Let 'em be KIDS!

That's exactly how I feel; on the subject of childrens' capacity to understand romance, I'll be blunt: when I was Mac's age, I thought my stuffed unicorn would come to life. Children just don't have the capacity to comprehend 'true love' or anything of the sort, and the crushes they do get are a whole different ballgame. Actual romance between them is, quite simply, extremely unrealistic, regardless of how emotionally or intellectually developed you may perceive them to be. Many of these characters aren't even anywhere near puberty, so it just doesn't make sense, and I'm not sure I want to be encouraging some of the creepy pedos out there who already go to town with the hints they see in existing cartoons.

Young kids want to grow up because they want to be able to do all the things adults do, and what they know of romance is what they see adults do. It's practice for later in their lives, but it's not true love. Is anyone here even still in touch with someone they had a crush on in the 3rd grade?

[pitbulllady]

Originally Posted by Mr. Marshmallow

I was actually very happy to see Fosters making references to their old episodes. Because one it showed that the episodes DID exist and not just completely ignore the events of the past seasons, which I find to be stupid. Kids show or not, you cannot avoid establishing certain jokes or relationships then ignore them.

Fosters has done it more often now. Look at Orland Bloo, Bloo's movie being mentioned, threatening to "rip off artist" kick the guy at the swap meat, and like Pitbull said Uncle pockets stuff. I agree on characters being in elementary school or something like that not really needing to be involved in romance, I accept that.

But I personally don't think kids are that ignorant or misunderstanding of crushes or romance. Kids take on alot more material then they used to do, and kids shows like Teen Titans or The Batman have romance, violence, and darker stuff in it and still manage to show continuity and relationships.

I keep going back to Teen Titans because that to me is one of the better examples of a romantic relationship existing not only in a kids show, but existing within younger characters lives AND keeping up with continuity. The last season of Titans is proof that the show certainly keeps its continuity going.

Starfire and Robin's relationship was progressed through out the series, through episodes, hints, and little things that all culiminated to their relationship's official "love" status by the Tokyo movie. It doesn't bother me that Robin and Starfire are in love and are at such a young age.

Doesn't matter to me, animation has a habit of erasing ages when you look at some of these characters and even though they may appear to be one age, they certainly look like another. Plus, for someone who's seen so much animation, to call young kids being in love as unrealistic is laughable.

Aliens fall in love (DBZ), walking talking animals fall in love (Cat's don't dance), robots fall in love (Robots), lions fall in love (Lion King), and I've seen kids fall in love (Were back: a dinosaurs story, and Nadia: secret of blue water). To me, this is hardly what i call unrealistic or too unlikely to swallow.

Fosters is a prime example of how there are certainly weirder and less plausible things that can happen then having two younger characters fall in love.

When I say "young children" I'm referring to characters who are not yet of the age of puberty. The reason that the show "Teen Titans" is called "TEEN Titans" is because its characters are in their teens, so a romantic relationship between, say, Robin and Starfire is quite a different ballgame from a romantic relationship between say, Mac and Goo. Even still, I don't know of any two people who are still together after dating in high school. I had to actually struggle for awhile to remember the last name of the guy *I* dated for nearly two years and went to the prom with! The fact that Mac, Goo, and the others are animated does not, for me, anyway, change the fact that they are still little kids. Even an animated series has to have some degree of plausibility, somewhere, otherwise there is nothing that people can relate to, and unless viewers relate in some way to the characters they see and the situations that those characters get into, they won't want to continue watching. While it's true that talking cars, lions, dinosaurs, and the like are implausible to say the least, they are the result of an age-old and common literary tool: anthropomorphism, giving human characteristics to things that aren't human in the least, or even alive in reality. That is done so that we humans can relate to the characters more. If a lion character, like Simba in The Lion King, for instance, did nothing but lie around under Acacia trees all day and fight with other male lions all night and chase hyenas off their kills, that character wouldn't be all that appealing to human viewers. We are supposed to forget that we're watching lions, or dinosaurs, or robots, or whatever, when they act like us. We cannot forget, though, that a human child is a human child; we know from experience how children act and what they feel because we've Been There, Done That, so suspension of disbelief becomes more difficult. Therefore, I can buy into two dinosaurs falling in love, or a lion, a meerkat and a warthog sitting around telling fart jokes, better than I can buy into a couple of 8-10 year-old children falling deeply in love with each other.

This does NOT mean that I'm opposed to the notion of romance in animation, by any means. It also doesn't mean that I think children watching the show would be put off by romance. Children are certainly aware of it, even if they aren't CAPABLE of it, and while some might be bored, I don't think that most would unless the romance took over from everything else and became the central focus of the whole series. I would just find it too difficult myself to believe two children who can't even be called "adolescents" yet can or should fall in love, beyond a simple crush, even on a show like Foster's, where we're already being asked to believe that Imaginary Friends become real, living, flesh-and-blood beings the instant they are created. There is nothing in our world that really compares to that, not even the invisable imaginary friends that kids make up that only they can "see", really, so there isn't any experience that we the viewers can really draw upon for comparison, but we've all either been kids, or still ARE kids, so that makes us more aware of what children are capable of. If you're going to have romance in an animated series, let it be between either two adult characters, or at least two characters that have passed puberty, because then it has some believability and something in real life to compare to.

pitbulllady

[Mr. Marshmallow]

My whole point about this issue being posted never had anything to do with romance existing in children that have not passed puberty, it was posted on the basis that romance isn't active anymore in animation. While there are quite a few shows today that do focus on kids, not all of them do.

That is my point, is the subject of romance not around in more recent toons or is it just me? I include movies, animes, and stuff like that because the whole point of the term animation means beyond just what you see on your local TV set. Far as Simba goes, he was a "kid" when he hit it off with Nala.

The same pretty much happened with Kiara and Kovu in Lion King 2. But as I said, the point was to see if romance was missing, I never EVER said I wanted it to be the focus so I would like to ask people to please stop assuming that. The subject is of romance in animation: period. Not with kids and not it being the focus.

[kageri]

Well most of your examples were shows aimed at/about kids, so I assumed that's what you meant, but if you mean romance in animation in general... I don't think it's dead. Anime, specifically, I doubt will ever stop having romantic elements; admittedly much of it is more "OOPS I FELL OVER AND YOU SAW MY PANTIES" than heartfelt love, but it is indeed there. In fact, I think the focus in cartoons is shifting more toward continuity and character development, perhaps thanks in part to the growing influence of anime.

[pitbulllady]

You know, I cannot recall any of the cartoons I watched as a kid having any romance in them at all! I watched mostly Hanna-Barberra stuff, since that pretty much dominated kid's tv in those days, which was LOOOOOONG before Anime' made it to the US shores(with the exception of "Speed Racer"). There was ALWAYS a romance in the animated Disney movies, of course, but I can't recall any on tv whatsoever. Even among the characters that were married, like Fred and Wilma Flintstone, they couldn't even be seen sleeping in the same bed, and the romantic aspect of their relationship was definately played down. Most of the movie animation these days has gotten away from the traditional Disney-style "happily ever after" storytelling that features a young couple who fall in love as the central characters, in favor of comedy and/or adventure, so yeah, in that respect, animated romance does seem to be lacking, but I really don't think that tv animated romance has either increased or decreased since I first started watching tv.

pitbulllady

[Mr. Marshmallow]

I remember it quite vividly from the toons I watched as a kid. Darkwing Duck, Beast Wars, Tale Spin, Rescue Rangers, Sonic the hedgehog (SATam), Extreme Ghostbusters, and to an even weirder extent, Bucky O'Hare and the Toad wars (which featured a interspecies couple which I still am WIGGED out over).

I think during my search for examples or shows I ended up mentioning kids and I think that's how it all got started. Disney does often have romances, but there are quite a few toon movies that do it as well. Cat's don't dance was an especially beautiful toon movie with a very cute romance I'd love to have seen more of.

Also the older days I remember when I FIRST saw Pokemon and got so excited seeing/finding episodes or pictures that hinted towards Ash and Misty's romance, which in my opinion is still the most perfect anime couple around. I saw the Pokemon LIVE show and i nearly crappy my pants seeing "Misty's song" live.

It was an indescribable feeling seeing two characters I watched for so much of my childhood years to make those cute blushing colors on their cheeks, and say comforting words to each other. This may sound sappy from me but it's the truth, these romances these small moments impacted me so signifcantly.

Even if it was just for a few seconds, even if it was only a brief glimpse into Eduardo and Kylie from Extreme Ghostbusters or a small glance seeing Chip or Dale fight over Gadget in Rescue Rangers. That one moment was strong enough to touch me personally for a lifetime, and I REALLY want that feeling again.

That's why I got so excited when a newer show like Teen Titans and Justice League brought some animated couples to a more modern age. And even though I felt these newer relationships lacked the heart warming comfort of the ones I grew up on, I still really hope and look forward to reliving those expierences with toons of today.

[pitbulllady]

Originally Posted by Mr. Marshmallow

I remember it quite vividly from the toons I watched as a kid. Darkwing Duck, Beast Wars, Tale Spin, Rescue Rangers, Sonic the hedgehog (SATam), Extreme Ghostbusters, and to an even weirder extent, Bucky O'Hare and the Toad wars (which featured a interspecies couple which I still am WIGGED out over).

I think during my search for examples or shows I ended up mentioning kids and I think that's how it all got started. Disney does often have romances, but there are quite a few toon movies that do it as well. Cat's don't dance was an especially beautiful toon movie with a very cute romance I'd love to have seen more of.

Also the older days I remember when I FIRST saw Pokemon and got so excited seeing/finding episodes or pictures that hinted towards Ash and Misty's romance, which in my opinion is still the most perfect anime couple around. I saw the Pokemon LIVE show and i nearly crappy my pants seeing "Misty's song" live.

It was an indescribable feeling seeing two characters I watched for so much of my childhood years to make those cute blushing colors on their cheeks, and say comforting words to each other. This may sound sappy from me but it's the truth, these romances these small moments impacted me so signifcantly.

Even if it was just for a few seconds, even if it was only a brief glimpse into Eduardo and Kylie from Extreme Ghostbusters or a small glance seeing Chip or Dale fight over Gadget in Rescue Rangers. That one moment was strong enough to touch me personally for a lifetime, and I REALLY want that feeling again.

That's why I got so excited when a newer show like Teen Titans and Justice League brought some animated couples to a more modern age. And even though I felt these newer relationships lacked the heart warming comfort of the ones I grew up on, I still really hope and look forward to reliving those expierences with toons of today.

Those particular animated shows that you mentioned were aired in that era of my life when I thought that animation was for kids only, unfortunately, so missed out on them. I grew up in the sixties and seventies, so I watched the things that were shown in that era. There was no Disney Channel or video games(unless you count "Pong") or Cartoon Network, just three regular networks, and animation was limited to Saturday mornings or some weekday afternoons, but weekdays were mainly the domain of Mr. Rogers and Sesame Street. Most of the cartoons of my day were pretty lame, actually, following a formula which either involved a bunch of teenagers and some talking, anthropomorphic animal or other non-human riding around in some odd vehicle solving mysteries and looking for ghosts or other scary things(which always turned out to be humans in disguise), or some cutesy pop music group that solved mysteries on the side, or some cutesy-but-smart underdog character trying to avoid the always-stupid-and-bumbling Bad Guy, who was always out to get him, usually to eat the Good Guy, but often for no apparent reason at all. There really wasn't much in the way of a plot to any episode and no character developement. I guess that the creators of animated tv shows didn't think that kids were intelligent enough to need things like plots, and animation was just made to keep the kids in front of the tv and sell sugary cereal. Probably the most intelligent of the shows I watched was "Johnny Quest", where there was actually a sort of plot and the animation was pretty good, but again, no romance, though I vaguely recall an episode in which "Haji", the Indian boy, had a crush on some Indian girl. That was about it, and my memory is probably not accurate enough that far back so that episode might not have happened.

pitbulllady

[Partymember]

Originally Posted by pitbulllady

Those particular animated shows that you mentioned were aired in that era of my life when I thought that animation was for kids only, unfortunately, so missed out on them. I grew up in the sixties and seventies, so I watched the things that were shown in that era. There was no Disney Channel or video games(unless you count "Pong") or Cartoon Network, just three regular networks, and animation was limited to Saturday mornings or some weekday afternoons, but weekdays were mainly the domain of Mr. Rogers and Sesame Street. Most of the cartoons of my day were pretty lame, actually, following a formula which either involved a bunch of teenagers and some talking, anthropomorphic animal or other non-human riding around in some odd vehicle solving mysteries and looking for ghosts or other scary things(which always turned out to be humans in disguise), or some cutesy pop music group that solved mysteries on the side, or some cutesy-but-smart underdog character trying to avoid the always-stupid-and-bumbling Bad Guy, who was always out to get him, usually to eat the Good Guy, but often for no apparent reason at all. There really wasn't much in the way of a plot to any episode and no character developement. I guess that the creators of animated tv shows didn't think that kids were intelligent enough to need things like plots, and animation was just made to keep the kids in front of the tv and sell sugary cereal. Probably the most intelligent of the shows I watched was "Johnny Quest", where there was actually a sort of plot and the animation was pretty good, but again, no romance, though I vaguely recall an episode in which "Haji", the Indian boy, had a crush on some Indian girl. That was about it, and my memory is probably not accurate enough that far back so that episode might not have happened.

pitbulllady

Thundarr the Barbarian rocked my world. That was the 80's, though.

Jonny Quest was great. So un-Politiclly Correct. Haji. LMAO.


dirka dirka

[pitbulllady]

Originally Posted by Partymember

Thundarr the Barbarian rocked my world. That was the 80's, though.

Jonny Quest was great. So un-Politiclly Correct. Haji. LMAO.


dirka dirka

Yeah, lol! At least the monsters and ghosts on "Johnny Quest" were REAL monsters and ghosts, though, and the Bad Guys were usually Neo-Nazi mad scientists who actually had automatic guns and SHOT people, so the threats were genuine. Even if there wasn't any romance(though I have seen that Dr. Bannon and Johnny's dad have their share of "slash" fans), it was still a pretty decent show. This is the era of animating pop bands; the Jackson Five and the Osmond Brothers both had their own cartoons, and fake pop bands("Josie and the Pussycats" or "The Archies", anyone?), and mystery-solving teens who never went to school("Scooby Doo", "The Funky Phantom"), and those endless chase-toons, wherein some small but very smart character got chased around all the time by a big but really dumb character who wanted to do him harm("The Ant and the Ardvaark", "Wheelie and the Chopper Bunch")-no romance in any of 'em. Well, Richie in "The Archies" DID have a crush on Veronica, I think, but she wouldn't have anything to do with him. The other teen characters were way too busy pulling the masks off of criminals disguised as ghosts/monsters/mummies/etc. to fall in love with each other. I really think that at that time in my life, though, as a young kid, I had no interest in romance at all. I could have ignored a small amount, but given the atmosphere in which I grew up(deep South, Bible Belt, rural conservative family), if it had been a prevelant part of the tv series, even something as innocent as a kiss now and then, either I would have gotten bored quickly with it and found it "yucky", or my parents would have noticed it and made me turn it off, since they would make me leave the room if they were watching a tv show and two people kissed!

My, how times have changed!

pitbulllady

[Partymember]

Originally Posted by pitbulllady

Yeah, lol! At least the monsters and ghosts on "Johnny Quest" were REAL monsters and ghosts, though, and the Bad Guys were usually Neo-Nazi mad scientists who actually had automatic guns and SHOT people, so the threats were genuine. Even if there wasn't any romance(though I have seen that Dr. Bannon and Johnny's dad have their share of "slash" fans), it was still a pretty decent show. This is the era of animating pop bands; the Jackson Five and the Osmond Brothers both had their own cartoons, and fake pop bands("Josie and the Pussycats" or "The Archies", anyone?), and mystery-solving teens who never went to school("Scooby Doo", "The Funky Phantom"), and those endless chase-toons, wherein some small but very smart character got chased around all the time by a big but really dumb character who wanted to do him harm("The Ant and the Ardvaark", "Wheelie and the Chopper Bunch")-no romance in any of 'em. Well, Richie in "The Archies" DID have a crush on Veronica, I think, but she wouldn't have anything to do with him. The other teen characters were way too busy pulling the masks off of criminals disguised as ghosts/monsters/mummies/etc. to fall in love with each other.

Jonny Quest was VERY good. Great animation, great plots, great voice acting, etc. Race Bannon was a frggin Die Hard-style dude. ex-CIA, ex-Green Beret, always packing heat. Dr. Bannon was a nerdy guy but sometime during the episode he'd always pick up an M-16 or something and start blowing away mummies or communists, which was a total "WTF?" moment for me.

And those robot Daddy Longlegs things were AWESOME! Death rays for eyes...so cool!

I really think that at that time in my life, though, as a young kid, I had no interest in romance at all. I could have ignored a small amount, but given the atmosphere in which I grew up(deep South, Bible Belt, rural conservative family), if it had been a prevelant part of the tv series, even something as innocent as a kiss now and then, either I would have gotten bored quickly with it and found it "yucky", or my parents would have noticed it and made me turn it off, since they would make me leave the room if they were watching a tv show and two people kissed!

My, how times have changed!

pitbulllady

the free love scene never hit South Carolina?



and here i am listening to Iron Butterfly...(bad hippy, bad!)