The Batman

[emperor26]

Anyone here watch this show that supposedly has a different take of the Dark Knight?

To be honest, I really enjoy this show, and in spite of the character's change in appearance, they remained the same with their personality. Plus, I really like the fact the show improved over time.

Overall, one of my favorite Batman shows.

[Mr. Marshmallow]

Damn straight I do .

I mentioned in the TV show thread how much I enjoyed this show and I really think people give it too much flak and not enough credit. People always think negatively of the show and always eager to bash it instead of giving it a chance.

I admit, some of their character revamps like Batgirl, Mr. Freeze, and Catwoman fell pretty flat for me. There's no way to top the old Batman toon show so I don't bother comparing them, I do what every decent critic SHOULD do and judge them as their own.

I think the animation is very slick and I love the music, but most of all, I LOVE the New Joker. His design and appearance are just very creative to me, and I think he really pushes the "crazy" bar even higher then the old Joker did. Season 4 has cranked out some of the best episodes of any other season.

Here's hoping season 5 keeps up the same good work, and that people finally give "The Batman" a second look instead of a second glare.

[emperor26]

Originally Posted by Mr. Marshmallow

Damn straight I do .

I mentioned in the TV show thread how much I enjoyed this show and I really think people give it too much flak and not enough credit. People always think negatively of the show and always eager to bash it instead of giving it a chance.

I admit, some of their character revamps like Batgirl, Mr. Freeze, and Catwoman fell pretty flat for me. There's no way to top the old Batman toon show so I don't bother comparing them, I do what every decent critic SHOULD do and judge them as their own.

I think the animation is very slick and I love the music, but most of all, I LOVE the New Joker. His design and appearance are just very creative to me, and I think he really pushes the "crazy" bar even higher then the old Joker did. Season 4 has cranked out some of the best episodes of any other season.

Here's hoping season 5 keeps up the same good work, and that people finally give "The Batman" a second look instead of a second glare.

Glad to know I'm not the only fan of this show.

But yeah, I agree, you should NEVER judge a show by its cover; rather, a show SHOULD be judged by its plots instead.

[AerostarMonk]

Well, I love watching this show. It's like watching an Elseworlds comic come to life. I even like the redesigned villains. However I must say that I believe that the insanity factor of the original Joker is far higher than the current one. I mean KMR's Joker has yet to reach the heights Hamill's Joker did in Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker.
Though one change that I like, I prefer this series Batgirl. The one in the Dini and Timm cartoon doesn't do it for me. She just was nowhere near as cool as the Batgirl from the comics. At least the current one is much more interesting.
I have so much more to say about this show, but I don't feel like writing a novel, so I guess I'll just write them later. Glad to know others love this show as well.

[AerostarMonk]

I never really thought of Black Mask as D grade as much as he was impossible to translate to a kids' show. I mean it was thought that it would be akin to putting Zsasz in the old show. And you know they'd never put him in there.

I'd really wish they'd pull the censors back a little and let the villains go wild once in a wild. I mean I'm sorta tired of all this posturing. I mean I don't want them to show a killing spree in all its glory. But even in the days when the comics were geared towards kids people died. Where's the real danger and suspense when you know everything is going to be better in the end?

I hope they bring in Two-Face and the Mad Hatter soon. Those guys were great in the old series, and I'd love to see how they're handled here.

By the way, the old series did use D grade villains, Mad Hatter and Mr Freeze were barely used in the comics, especially Mr. Freeze. Prior to the show he was always more of a jokey character. And Killer Croc wasn't really what you'd call a major in the Rogue's Gallery either.

Personally, I'd like to see some more Man-Bat. In fact I'd like to see them tackle the storyline where Langstrom father's a son with the same symptoms he has. Not a major thing, it just seems like it could be a great story idea if done right. I mean who'd ever think they'd combine the two Clock King stories from the original series to make a fascinating new interpretation of a seldom used character in the comic books?

[Mr. Marshmallow]

The thing is though is that a D type villain CAN be used to become a much bigger villain, it all depends on potential. The Mad hatter has a great gimmick and set up which allows him to be able to be used many times. Same with Freeze, ice type villains are fairly common with super heroes.

Hatter and Freeze worked better in toons then comics, this goes back to what i said about translation. Just because something works in the comics doesn't mean it will work in another media. Galactus is a fine example. The new Fantastic 4 movie said they have to change his appearance for the film.'

Why? Because how he looks in a comic book would look totally stupid and weird in a live movie, it's all a matter of proper translation. Croc and Freeze were made into more re-usable villains thanks to the series clever use of them. I do also like how Man-bat likes being a villain in the new series as opposed to the old one.

I doubt very much we'll see Two-Face though, of all the Batman villains. Two-face has showed up the least in media appearances. This is mainly due to the fact he represents alot of serious, psychological/bipolar issues that are definitely going to be too insanely dark for a kids show.

Even if they got a little leeway with showing more graphic content in the show, Two-face is always going to be a very sensitive character to use.

[AerostarMonk]

Yeah. He was supposed to be portrayed by Clint Eastwood in the Adam West series. Man that would've been something to see. But that was shot down because it didn't fit the mood of the show or the audience. He's just such a great villain though. The way he was done in Animated Series was just great. Especially when he developed a third personality that was out to kill all criminals, even himself.

I think Galactus would work rather well in a movie with a stretching man, a walking rock, an invisible woman, and burning guy. Oh yes and some flying silver dude on a surfboard. They've already crossed the line. They really can't hurt themselves with some giant purple hatted guy. Now that guy's iconic.

Back to Batman, as for D grade villains, if they break out King Tut, I think I might be moderately pissed. What a lame villain, it would be almost as lame as putting in Calendar Man.

I would love to see Poison Ivy use her skills to age herself. Being only a teenager has actually made it impossible to get across one of her most powerful weapons: seduction. She's not just someone with plant powers. If you want that you should bring in the Floronic Man.

I've always liked the tortured nature of Man-Bat. And seeing as there is only two sympathetic villains on the entire program, and one of those has taken himself out of the running, Langstrom not wanting to be a villain would fit in well to fill that void. He doesn't have to be full on goody-goody. Even AS Langstrom had that pesky little problem of part of his personality actually being Man-Bat and wanting to set its physical form free once more.

I still think Nicholson's Joker was lacking something. He just didn't feel like Joker to me. Maybe because he wasn't that funny, and he never tried to be funny either. Joker to me is that villain who acts like a carnival clown goes to a grade school festival and then gasses the crowd while tying a balloon elephant. And I just didn't feel that there.

[Mr. Marshmallow]

Poison Ivy does use seduction, just not in the same way the original one did. She uses her plants more often and uses the pollen to hypnotize or seduce if you prefer to get people under her control. What's nice about this Ivy is that she is a REAL mutant, not some chick who just has a plant gimmick.

The original Ivy had great sex appeal but I always considered her to be under explored, her mutant plants indicate a much more advanced level of super villainy and larger then a common plant foe. The new one at least has real plant powers and I REALLY liked how she used to be friends with Batgirl.

The thing with Galactus is there not saying he won't work, there saying his LOOKS won't work. Just like Green Goblin from Spider man. His original appearance had him wearing purple boots, gloves, pointed cap, and carrying a purse around....if they had used that EXACT image, he'd look awful fruity.

Images have to be tweaked because again, comics don't always translate well to movies, not without occasionally looking ridiculous that is. Riddler for example is a hard outfit to pull off and coming off as serious, Carrey did a great job as Riddler though and I loved how he imitated Frank Goshire.

The original West/Batman series Riddler. His giggles and grinning face really reminded me of the old school Riddler, and I especially found it funny that of ALL the villain teams ups I've seen, I find it freaking amazing that Two-face and Riddler actually worked well together in "Forever" with ZERO back stabbing.

[AerostarMonk]

Finally, someone else who loved Forever. We are a rare breed indeed. The score to that movie is brilliant. It's just great big fun. And the people who don't like it are just being sourpusses.

I still think Galactus would work. Like I said they already have the Silver Surfer, he's silly enough as in design. They could make Galactus more like the Galactus in the Marvel Alliance videogame. However it seems like they're going with Gah Lak Tus from the Ultimate universe. Besides they've always explained in the comics that Galactus only looked the way he did because it was far easier for people to wrap their mind around a giant man eating the planet than whatever his true form actually is. His most iconic design is nothing more than a mental projection. Even comic book writers and artist can't agree on his true form.

As for Poison Ivy, she is a meta-human in the comics. She actually does have the mutant ability to manipulate plants, on top of that she also has a mystical connection with them. In fact John Glover's character in Batman & Robin, Jason Woodrue, actually did have a hand in creating her in the comics. He's the Floronic Man.

I love her friendship with Barbara as well. But I can see why they toned her down seduction wise. I mean in the comics, whoo. And admittedly AS toned her seduction powers down as well. But I would still love to see Floronic Man pop up sometime.

I would also love to see Ra's Al-Ghul show up. I wonder what they could do with him and Talia.

Really there's so many story ideas with Batman that with this clever team of writers and a little lightening up with the censors the possibility are endless.

[Ditchy McAbandonpants]

Jeeze! Mr Marshmallow and AerostarMonk appear to have annexed the Other Entertainment board! Don't worry about the rest of us, guys, we'll pack up our stuff and leave. No, I kid, obviously; I can't possibly keep pace on the TMNT debate, so I'll just stick with The Batman. Warning: this is really stupidly long, and most likely quite boring.

Characters I like: The Penguin - He's overused, yes, but I think I prefer the vulgar and vicious Danny DeVito-style Penguin to the gentleman Penguin of B:TAS, plus I generally like Tom Kenny (who doesn't? ). Even though his physicality in this show sounds laughable on paper, I think it works pretty well, especially when he has those cool Kabuki Twins backing him up. His main problem is the fact they wheel him out too often for a cheap laugh; using him more sparingly would make his best episodes (like "Team Penguin") more effective.
The Riddler - Generally speaking, I'm not a massive fan of Riddler; the "wacko genius" schtick of Gorshin and Carrey were fun, but felt too derivative of Joker to me, and though B:TAS's calm, calculating Riddler was a step up, I felt his episodes on the show were a little weak, too often falling back on the "Batman and Robin Trapped In A Giant Maze" cliche and leaving Riddler himself on the sidelines as a smug but rather uninvolved observer. For me, The Batman's "Manson Riddler" combines the forceful presence of Gorshin with the cold smarts of John Glover, and adds new dimensions of his own; creepiness (thanks to that design and Robert Englund's voice) and emotional and psychological depth (his new "Riddler's Revenge" backstory just worked for me, showing the emotional and spiritual fragility that counterbalances his intellectual genius, as in the finale of "Riddled" where he's undone by his own need to work out Batman's identity on his own). End result; my personal favourite Riddler.
Hugo Strange - As a non-comic reader, Strange wasn't a character that I was that familiar with before, but he's so effective here, excelling as the show's "psychological villain" in the absence of Scarecrow. His machinations are probably the most complex of any villain here, and it makes his episodes all the more interesting to watch, especially Season Four's excellent "Strange New World", whose ending really caught me off guard. Good job, writers!
Clayface - In my view, the Harvey Dent/Two-Face charcter arc, the story of a good, moral man's tragic descent into deformity and criminal madness, is one of the most affecting and involving in the Batman canon; I hated how they trampled it in the otherwise OK Batman Forever, loved how they nailed it in B:TAS's "Two-Face" two-parter, and am really looking forward to seeing how Chris Nolan and crew handle it in forthcoming movies. Suddenly and shockingly transplanting that arc onto poor Ethan Bennett, a solid and likeable supporting character throughout Season One, was a really effective move on the show's creators part. For a writer on a supposed kids' show, Greg Weisman deserves major credit for making Clayface's origin story "The Clay Face of Tragedy", as well as its later follow-up "Meltdown", as affecting as they were. It's a shame he didn't get to complete the arc himself; whilst "Clayfaces" was a good episode, I felt that the new writer let Karlo's introduction push Ethan's much-deserved happy ending out of the limelight...hopefully we'll see him again.
Robin - Here's another character this show has turned me round on; I always believed that the concept of a kid tagging along with the fabled Dark Knight couldn't work in any remotely serious context. B:TAS's Robin was the first Robin I could accept; The Batman went one better and gave me one I really liked. I had had my doubts before I his introduction; as far as I was concerned, Batgirl's arrival had taken the show back a step, but from his debut in the outstanding "A Matter of Family" (which rivalled B:TAS's "Robin's Reckoning", in my view) onwards, he's really enhanced the show, bringing out new sides to Batman, validating Batgirl's presence and being pretty cool on his own merits to boot.
Other honorable mentions - Harley Quinn (a little nastier maybe, but otherwise the same great character; new actress Hynden Walch imitates predecessor Arleen Sorkin flawlessly), Killer Moth (a very amusing comedy take on the character; he sounds like Ted from Scrubs ), Poison Ivy (good new backstory; underused so far, especially in terms of her links to Barbara Gordon), Ellen Yin (developed into a solid character over the course of the first two seasons; I was really disappointed to see her dropped without explanation at the end of Season Two, not even returning for Ethan's rehabilitation ), Ragdoll (amusing voice, great visual villain), Francis Grey (excellent one-shot character with an intriguing power and a heart-warming story arc), Firefly (arrogant, cocksure demeanour and "gun-for-hire" nature makes him a versatile and compelling character; provides killer visuals), Cash Tankenson (yes, he's a ludicrous character who feels like he's wandered in from another show, but no-one can resist Patrick Warburton doing his thing )

Characters I'm undecided on: The Joker - I actually love his look, with its craggy, exaggerated spikiness and brilliantly clashing colours, I like his kineticism and unique way of moving, and I think Kevin Michael Richardson is an astute choice of voice actor, as left-field as it seems. Nevertheless, I don't think he's been handled well; the writers seem unsure as to what they want him to be. Is he a homicidal psychopath? Is he a mischievous troublemaker? Is he deceptively contemplative? Is he a comedic buffoon? B:TAS's Joker was written to be all of these things at the same time, and Mark Hamill really sold it; The Batman's writers fluctuate wildly in their presentation of him, leaving Kevin Michael Richardson in no-man's land, and making their Joker an inconsistent and frustrating character to watch.
Mr Freeze - Again, brilliant visual design - Mr Freeze action sequences are amongst the prettiest scenes this already gorgeous show has to offer - and a great, chilling (sorry ) voice from Clancy Brown are let down by poor writing. I don't mind them returning to la less complex Freeze after B:TAS's definitive version; but does he have to be quite as cartoonish as he is here, with his lack of any motives at any point ever, and his line in rubbish Arnie-level puns? Batman and Robin was ten years ago, people; aren't we past lines like "have an ice day" yet?
Batgirl - To look at her on paper, this Batgirl is an utterly loathsome little wretch; an arrogant sass-mouthed teeny-bopper with a line in smug, corny quips, tagging along with a Batman who doesn't want her there and upsetting the balance of a show that had just hit its stride. I should despise her, and yet I don't; her visual design is OK, and actress Danielle Judovits does what she can, at least providing some innocence to ground the overbearing lines she's given. Her initial introdustion did yield some good episodes (her two-part debut "Batgirl Begins", "A Dark Knight To Remember"), and she's worked a lot better in the sideline role she's taken since Robin came in. Still, she is fundamentally quite an aggravating character, and the second half of Season Three showed how too much of Batgirl can really bog the series down.
Alfred - B:TAS's Efrem Zimbalist Alfred and Batman Begins's Michael Caine Alfred got the mix of dry wit, professional respect and fatherly affection right; this version, at least to begin with, erred too much to the "wit" side, resulting in what I like to call a "Dave Chappelle Alfred", who milks everything Bruce Wayne says for an opportunity to drop in a cheap gag or pun. He seemed to tone this down later; maybe Bruce just got sick of it and gave him a punch in the mouth.

Characters I don't like: Catwoman - I don't know what it is about her; maybe it's the massive ears that make her look more like a mouse, maybe it's that large collar that makes her suit look really baggy, maybe it's clawed gloves that make her look like she has man-hands, but whatever it is, this version of Catwoman just doesn't seem very sexy. Gina Gershon's performance is competent, but it just seems to lack that spark that Adrienne Barbeau's had, and the chemistry between her and Batman isn't really there, especially since the sidekicks showed up. I know it sounds a bit shallow, but it's the nature of this character; there really is no point to an unsexy Catwoman.
Man-Bat - The hideous white vampiric Man-Bat design is creepy and effective, which makes it all the more of a shame that his alter ego Dr. Langstrom is nothing but a dull, one-note "Mad Evil Doctor (tm)". The Kurt Langstrom/Man-Bat story is a great horror-style tale in the Jekyll and Hyde/Wolfman tradtion, and indeed, it was considered strong enough to carry B:TAS's moody, sinister pilot "On Leather Wings"; the Batman's version has none of that atmosphere, mostly because of its focus on Peter MacNicol's hammy, screechy Langstrom.

As you can tell if you were patient enough to read all of that, my thoughts on this show are overall pretty positive, and I am looking forward to seeing the finale of what has been the strongest season so far. I'm a little concerned about the fact that a few members of the creative team, including Jeff Matsuda, are set to leave after Season Four ends, plus I'm not entirely sold on the idea of Season Five featuring other Justice League characters as Superman and The Flash; I'd be much happier to see them tackle more of the Batman Rogues Gallery (Clayface's revised arc means that Two-Face probably won't be seen, but Ra's Al Ghul and Scarecrow are two obvious omissions so far; hopefully enough time has elapsed since Batman Begins to use them), or indeed just give more time to underused villains like Poison Ivy, Clayface II and Bane. I'll see what happens as regards Season Five, but howver it turns out, I think with Season Four the show has already proved itself worthy of its place in Batman history.


(And now my fingers hurt, and I've gone blind. Ah well.)